
Mercuriou: No capitalist government can be legitimate!  It's like
asking if a communist government or a fascist government can be
legitimate!  It's impossible!  They're _immoral_ philosophies!



Mercuriou: Now is this government legitimate or not?

Zee: America isn't perfect; we've got a million abortions every year.
Yet democracy has served us fairly well.  What's your alternative?

Mercuriou: I'd make some changes, but the form of government isn't so
important.  It's the Godliness of the leadership.

[ Zee: That sounds good, captain, but I doubt I'd like your concept of
[ Godliness.

[ Mercuriou: Well, whether we like it or not is irrelevant, isn't it?

[ Zee: I doubt I'd agree that your 'Godliness' is truly Godly.

Zee: What's your idea of 'Godliness'?

Mercuriou: Not capitalism!

Zee: Capitalism is not immoral!

Mercuriou: Capitalism is one of the most immoral philosophies ever!
_Do_for_yourself_and_let_the_'invisible_hand'_take_care_of_them_ It's
depraved, plus a repudiation of half of the Christian gospel.

Zee: Capitalism is not doing for yourself.  If people want to give to
charity, they can do so.  Capitalism is freedom.

Mercuriou: Remember the rich man and the old woman?  The rich man went
to the synagogue, gave a big donation.  The old woman gave two bits.
Christ then asked which of them went away redeemed.  Now stop for a
minute.  How would capitalists answer?  How would the majority
respond?  'Look at how much good can be done with that rich man's
generosity!  Look how many people can be helped!  He worked hard to
earn that money, now he gives it back!  You can run a soup kitchen for
a month with what he gave!  What can you do with two bits?  You can't
even buy a homeless man a cup of coffee.  The old woman might as well
have not even given anything!'  But Christ told us that the
_old_woman_ goes away redemed... why?  Because she gave _everything_!

Zee: So Christian morality is based on giving away all our worldly
possessions?

Mercuriou: No, but sometimes we must do that.  It is not _based_ on
that, though.  It's based on love, generousity being just one of its
most obvious forms.

Zee: I don't see how love requires me to hand a crackhead $20 to blow
on drugs.

Mercuriou: Right!  That's what happened to Andrew van der Bijl in
1954:

   The last round in the game was the most subtle of all.  It was
   December 30.  I had to have my application in the mail
   that day if it was to get to London on the thirty-first.

   At ten o'clock in the morning, one of the students shouted up the
   stairwell that I had a visitor.  I ran down the stairs thinking that
   this must be my delivering angel.  But when I saw who it was, my heart
   dropped.  This visitor wasn't coming to _bring_ me money, he was
   coming to _ask_ for it.  For it was Richard, a friend I had made
   months ago in the Patrick slums, a young man who came to the school
   occasionally when he just had to have cash.

   With dragging feet I went outside.  Richard stood on the white-pebble
   walkway, hands in pocket, eyes lowered.  "Andrew," he said,
   "would you be having a little extra cash?  I'm hungry."

   I laughed and told him why.  I told him about the soap and the
   razor blades, and as I spoke I saw the coin.

   It lay among the pebbles, the sun glinting off it in just such a way
   that I could see it but not Richard.  I could tell from its color that
   it was a shilling.  Instinctively I stuck out my foot and covered the
   coin with my toe.  Then as Richard and I talked, I reached down and
   picked up the coin along with a handful of pebbles.  I tossed the
   pebbles down one by one, aimlessly, until at last I had just the
   shilling in my hand.  But even as I dropped the coin into my pocket,
   the battle begun.  That coin meant I could stay in school.  I wouldn't
   be doing Richard a favor by giving it to him: he'd spend it on drink
   and be thirsty as ever in an hour.

   While I was still thinking up excellent arguments, I knew it was no
   good.  How could I judge Richard when Christ told me so clearly that I
   must not.  Furthermore, this was not the Royal Way!  What right had an
   ambassador to hold on to money when another of the King's children
   stood in front of him saying he was hungry.  I shoved my hand back
   into my pocket and drew out the silver coin.

   "Look, Richard," I said, "I do have this.  Would it help any?"

   Richard's eyes lit up.  "It would, mate."  He tossed the coin into
   the air and ran off down the hill.  With a light heart that told
   me I had done the right thing, I turned to go back inside.

   And before I reached the door the postman turned down our walk.

   In the mail of course was a letter for me.  I knew when I saw
   Greetje's handwriting that it would be from the prayer group at
   Ringers' and that there would be cash inside.  And there was.  A lot
   of money: A pound and a half - thirty shillings.  Far more than enough
   to send my letter, buy a large box of soap, treat myself to my
   favorite toothpaste - and buy Gillette Supers instead of Blues.

   The game was over.  The King had done it His way.

[BROTHER ANDREW]

Mercuriou: 1954!  1954!  Not 72 A.D.!  "Another of the King's children
stood in front of him saying he was hungry!"  _That_ should posted on
the counter of every restaurant in America, not a VISA symbol!

Zee: You can't be serious.

Mercuriou: Christ said that if a man steals our cloak, we should give
him our coat as well.  So, if a man breaks into your home, holds your
entire family up at gunpoint and takes everything of value that he
sees, you give him the keys to the car and offer to help carry the
stereo out, because it's pretty heavy.  Of course, he also told the
thief some things _he_ doesn't want to hear, either, like 'thou shall
not steal'.

Zee: So he told the thief not to steal and he told the rich man to
give his stereo to the thief, ehh?

Mercuriou: It's two seperate commands to two different people, but it
comes down to the same thing - love your neighbor.

-----

Zee: Well, the great thing about freedom is that Mr. Gates can be a
Christian if wants to, he could give away all his source code, it's up
to him!

Mercuriou: And does he want that?  Does he 'give to all who beg of him'?

Zee: Well that's his choice.  That's freedom.

Mercuriou: You're dogging the question, sir.  Every murder ever
committed in human history was perpetrated by the freedom of the
murderer!  Every rape, every theft!  Every slave was enchained by the
_freedom_ of his master!  Freedom in the absence of morality is the
single most destructive force this planet has _ever_ seen, and people
talk about freedom largely because they _don't_ want to talk about
morality!  As for Mr. Gates, we've all seen the choices he's made with
his freedom.  We've all seen America's choices.  We've all seen the
choices of the _majority_.

Mercuriou: The path to salvation is narrow, governor, and those who
find it are few.  The path to damnation is broad, and those who find
it are many.  Most people sing their hymns on Sunday and then go work
those jobs on Monday because they need the money, live in an immoral
society where they can't live without it, and have no intention of
just giving it all away to anyone who asks.


-----

I'm not going to get mad, not going to get tough, not going to give
in, I'm not going to fight back.  I'm just going to say no.

-----

How will we say no?  We will not do what we're told, and we will not
live under your rule.  We will take one state and leave.

-----

Government is about the use of force.  That's what makes government
government.  That's what sets government apart from all other
institutions.  When people talk about using government, they're really
talking about using force.  We want to use government as a last resort
because we want to use force as a last resort.

-----

The Drug War is unjust.  It is fundamentally unjust.  This is a
judgement call.  Whether someone should be locked up because they took
a gun and killed someone, or whether someone should be locked up
because they published a newspaper article critical of the government.
This is a judgement call.  There is no hard-and-fast rule that can be
applied to decide if an action merits a prison term.  There is a
question of judgement that can not be decided mechanistically.  I
believe that the Drug War is unjust.  We have thousands, perhaps
millions of people in this country, imprisoned as unjustly as if they
had been convicted of a crime they did not commit.  It is the
government (majority) that is persecuting the drug users, not the
other way around.  It is the government (majority) that is wrong.
They are the persecutors; the drug users are the victims.  It is
fundamentally unjust to lock someone in a prison cell for
growing a plant.

They broke the laws!

I fundamentally reject this concept of government.  The government is
not entitled to pass whatever laws it pleases and lock anyone up in
prison because they wouldn't do what they were told.  There is an
overriding question of justice that transcends any particular
system of government and any particular law.

We can't afford the have the police seen as persecutors.  It is
essential for public confidence that they be seen as protectors of
public safety.

Minorities have to accept that they will be ruled over by majority.
If the majority is unjust, eventually the minorities will rise up
against them.

-----

Terrorism is easy to understand.
Look how gung ho the majority is for their guns, their
second ammendment.

They only reason they oppose terrorism is because they win these
elections.  If they weren't winning the elections, if they were in the
situation that we are in, they vote and they lose, they vote and they
lose, a bunch of them would be out shooting the place up with guns.
Why?  Because they're completely disenfranchised by the political
system.  They feel they have no recourse, so they're going to lash out
in anger and rage.

-----

Why would we support democracy at all?

JS Mill - check against abuse of power

may be acceptable in a small society

1 Chronicles - if king and people chose godly behavior, any society
will work out

democracy may work as a check against govn't abuse of power

US has become the bad guy; it's because of the choices made by its
people.  The majority have made disastrous choices; they've embraced
this depraved economic philosophy of Capitalism; we've rejected the
christian gospel; we're going to have all these intellectual property
controls; we're going to build this technology so that its all locked
down and controlled, and we're going to use that control to dominate
the world globally - Globalization, which basically comes down to
global capitalism.  We back this up with a tyrannical political
philosophy that somehow democracy justifies capitalism.  If the
majority want capitalism, that justifies capitalism.  In fact, it's
the other way around - capitalism condemns democracy.  We've
benn very heavy handed about.  Creeping militarism.  "These
13 states should be independent and free" to Manifest Destiny
to the Monroe Doctrine to global containment and now we're
on to global preemption.

When did the U.S. become the bad guy?  Maybe it's always been.  In
recent years, 1980 - Reagan sold this country on a nightmare and did
it with a laugh.  He was the last president that people really
listened to; all the men who have come since him have been
placeholders.  Last man to really influence how the country thought
about itself, and it was not a positive influence.

-----

The invasions of Afganistan and Iraq were justified in the same way as
9/11.  Which is to say, there was a justification, in our case 9/11
itself, in bin Laden's case U.S. support for Israel and our Arab
allies, but the response, in both cases, was all out of any proportion
to the provocation.

[MORE HERE - explain why a tribunal would have appropriate]

George Bush was everyman.  His invasions were wildly popular among
Americans; just look at the polls.  And he _believed_ in democracy.
He really thought that the solution to these problems was to roll in
there with the U.S. military, overthrow these governments, install
democracy, pack up and leave.  Instead, he got exactly what you can
expect when one country invades, conquers, and imposes its form of
government on another country - civil war.

...But he wanted democracy!  He wanted freedom!

He didn't understand democracy.  He did not understand that democracy
requires at least the passive support of the minorities.  [MORE HERE]

-----


-----

"Well, there's lot of things taught in the Bible.  The Bible
teaches us to stone prostitutes to death, for example, but..."



nothing that teaches democracy as some holy philosophy


===================




government is inspired by God?

"A legitimate government is one that rules with the support of its people."

"You find that in the Bible?  That a government inspired by God is one
that rules with the support of its people?"

Zee flared up.  "Look, Dr. Yeats, if you can't tell the difference
between a democratically elected government and a dictatorship, then I
guess you belong on that ship of theives with their rebel capitan!"



"Where do you find that in the Gospel, governor, I'd really like to
know!"

"So there's nothing wrong with murder?!"

"Murder is against the laws of God; _thou_shall_not_kill_!"

"So the only time we have to obey the law is when it's in accord with
our ideas of what God wants?"

"Governor, the _only_ law we _have_ to obey is the _law_of_God_!"

Zee paused and considered this.

"So all these laws we have, people should just pick and choose
whenever they want to obey or not to obey them?"

"People should concern themselves first and foremost with the laws
of God!  The laws of man are secondary!"

"Well, then we'd just have anarchy!  I could just say that my religion
teaches human sacrifice, that I think that's the will of God, right?"

"You can believe whatever you want.  You can believe the world is
flat, but that doesn't change the fact that it's round.  But I'll go
so far as to say that if you truly believed that human sacrifice was
ordained by God, then you'd have a moral obligation to practice it
irregardless of the laws of men!  Which is why the Bible is so
important!  So we can clearly know that human sacrifice is _not_
ordained by God!"

"So let's see, you think men are only obligated to obey the laws of
God, and yet you don't believe the Bible is literally true, so how are
we supposed to determine the law of God?"

"It's not easy.  In fact, I think it's about the hardest thing to do
in life.  You start by making a conscience decision to seek the will
of God, to try and make every decision in your life, big and small,
based not on what you want, but on what God wants, you pray, you
worship, you study the Bible, especially the Gospels, and then you do
the best you can."

"And if that's in conflict with our laws, you just ignore the laws,
then?"





Ecks: Why don't you answer my question?

Mercuriou: Why don't you answer mine?  Smith is your patron saint,
he's in the 'Gospel of Capitalism', isn't he? Christ said 'give to all
those who beg of you', and 'if a man steals your coat, give him your
cloak as well'.  Now if this is how we are to treat a thief, a _thief_
mind you, then how should we treat people who just ask politely?

Ecks: How convenient you bring up your own crime!





Mercurio: First, I'm going to close the prisons and release the
prisoners.  Whatever problems we have in our society, we're not going
to deal with them by finding someone to blame and throwing them in a
jail cell.  And I intend to open the borders.  Freedom will be for
anyone who wants to come to Hawaii, not just for those with a U.S.
passport in their pockets.  In short, it's not just going to be
'freedom for us'; it's going to be freedom for everyone.

Wye: So some thug pulls a gun and kills someone, you're just going to
let them walk free.

Mercurio: That's right.

Wye: I don't know how many people are going to support that, captain.

Mercurio: Well, the alternative is a prison state, senator.  You've
got me convinced that if you let people imprison the most violent
criminal, you're next, because the majority will never stop screaming
for tougher laws and more jail cells.

Andrea: Letting murderers walk free is not going to fix our problems.
It is essential that violence be addressed through ministry, and not
simply ignored.  I don't advocate a state church, but it is essential
that religion and spirituality be an integral part of daily life.
Furthermore, a broad-based rejection of capitalism is essential,
because when people grow up in a society who leaders are driven by
self-interest, it's easy for them to turn lawless.  On the other hand,
people are unlikely to steal from a baker who has a free loaf of bread
for them whenever they are hungry.


Wye: You can make all this nice talk about everyone should be good and
caring to each other, but the fact is that there are always people who
will abuse freedom, and for them we need laws.  Take the environment,
for example.  What are you going do when somebody dumps their garbage
into the river?

Andrea: Well, we'll try very hard to ensure that people don't have much
motivation to dump their garbage in the river.  We're not going to
charge them to rent a truck and then charge them again when they get
to the dump.  We'll try to be patient and tolerant with malefactors.
And, finally, when our patience runs out, we'll have to find some kind
of legal sanction to impose against them.  But you do this backwards.
With your constant nickle-and-diming [CA], you incentivize people to
cut corners to save money, and then figure that the only way to
protect the environment is a bunch of government regulations.



Wye: We're not going to let these sexual predators walk free to molest
our children!

Mercuriou: How many lives have _you_ destroyed!?  How many people have
you disappeared into your prisons for fear of what they haven't done!?
You!  _You_ are the predator!  You!  You and your _government_!

Zee: So I understand that now you're advocating freedom for murderers!

Andrea: Yes, I am.  Christ set this example himself.  He walked to
his death and with his dying breath forgave his murderers.

Zee: This isn't Christianity!  Christians are decent, law-abiding
citizens, not a bunch of thieves and murderers and dope heads!

Andrea: Don't have sex, don't do drugs, don't drink alcohol, and give
me ten percent of all your money, ehh?

Zee: Christians are obedient to authority, that is made clear in
Romans 13: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have
been instituted by God."

Andrea: Romans contains the teaching of Paul, and Paul was not Christ.
Are we to believe that communist authority was from God, or that Adolf
Hitler was instituted by God?  The United States Congress once passed
a Fugitive Slave Act.  Would you have us believe that Christians in
that day were under a moral duty to God to return slaves to their
owners?  We are surrounded in this world by authority that is clearly
not from God.  I prefer to look to First Samuel 12, where the prophet
says "If you will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice,
and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both you
and also the king that reigns over you continue following the LORD
your God... But if you shall still do wickedly, you shall be consumed,
both you and your king."

Zee: We don't have a king!

Andrea: Then you shall be consumed, both you and your democracy!  The
point isn't the method of government, it is a warning against the
wicked leadership which abounds in this world!  And a far more
accurate assessment it is than the truckling Romans 13!

Zee: Wicked leadership!  You mean the hop heads and thieves you've
associated yourself with!

Mercuriou: How about this, governor... forget your elections!  I'll
just overthrow your government!  Then you can climb your pulpit and
preach about how I'm the God-constituted authority and now everyone
has to do what I say!

[ Andrea: I'll take hop heads any day over a bunch of militants who think ]
[ that 'turning the other cheek' applies to everyone but them! ]

Zee: You don't want _any_ laws!  You want anarchy!

Andrea: It comes back to First Samuel 12 - people have to choose to
serve the Lord, otherwise it _is_ anarchy!

Zee: And what about people who don't choose to serve the Lord!
Murderers and thieves, rapists and perverts!  For them we have to have
laws!  What about the victims of these Godless monsters?  Do we just
sacrifice them on the alter of your supposed piety?

Andrea: We are the victims, governor, and yes, we choose to accept our
fate.  We choose to love our enemies and pray for our murderers.  For
those who aren't willing to accept that fate, they have the freedom to
live under any other system of government they please - yours, for
example.

[ Zee: How?  You're determined to make your own government! ]

Mercuriou: Genuine political freedom comes not from a ballot box but
from the freedom to travel, coupled with a variety among nations.  If
people are so terrified of these murderers and rapists that they want
your prison state, they can have it - it's just an airplane ride away!

Zee: So the people who don't agree with you, you throw out!

Mercuriou: Well, that's the freedom you've handed us, right?  Once
we're in charge, the people who don't like it can "get the hell out!"
They can "love it or leave it!"  They can "stick an egg in their shoe
and beat it!"


Zee: See, your problem is that you don't believe in democracy!  You
don't think this country can change!  But I've seen it change!  I've
seen the civil rights movement!  If you believed in this country, then
you would lead it to change instead of destroying it!

Mercuriou: Then change!  I'm not stopping you, in fact, I'd love to
see this country change!  But I've seen the choices that its people
have made and the kind of leaders they've chosen!  I'm not interested
in some half-hearted change watered down and opposed every step of the
way by special interests!  I'm not going to keep waiting for the
election, and then the next election, and the election after that!
And I _don't_ see, at all, how I'm "destroying" this country.  Why
does everyone have to move together in lock step?  Why can't one group
go one way, and another group another?  Why should we sacrifice
freedom for the sake of unity?

Zee: The country is at war!  We need unity, not division!

Mercuriou: The country is always at war!  It's invaded and conquered
four other nations just in my lifetime!

Zee: Four countries!  What four countries?

Mercuriou: Granada, Panama, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Zee: (laughing) Granada...

Mercuriou: Yes, Granada.  We steamrolled over some little nothing
country in a one-day war, but it was still the armed conquest of a
sovereign nation.  And Panama was conquered by the
_very_same_president_ that two years later stood up and told the world
that we were in Kuwait to stop a large country from pushing around a
small one!

Zee: I think the people of Panama have a different version of that
"conquest" - they were glad to get rid of Noriega!

Mercuriou: Right - there are two different versions of international
law, one for democracy, and one for everyone else.  If you're not a
democracy, you basically have no rights.  You can be conquered by an
overwhelmingly more powerful neighbor, and it's a "liberation".  I
don't know why we even bother with international law.  We just do
whatever seems expedient at the moment.

Mercuriou: You talk about unity, but freedom and unity are often opposing
interests.  If I want to walk left and you want to walk right, then
one of us has to sacrifice our freedom to achieve unity.  For me,
the bottom line is that I do not support the leadership of this
country, and therefore I am not willing to sacrifice my freedom
for the sake of unity.



========


Mercuriou: Christ taught us to 'give to all those who beg of us', and
not just when we feel like it.  There are plenty of people out there
who stand behind a counter and won't lift a finger for anyone unless
they're being handed a credit card.  You can call it 'freedom' or
anything else you please.  Remember the rich man and the old woman!  I
call it capitalism and I call it immoral!



========

"This isn't Christianity!  Christianity is about redemption through
faith.  You're redeemed through faith, not through your deeds!"

"If that's so, then why does Jesus spend so much time talking about
how we live in this world?  Why did he bother to say 'turn the other
cheek' and 'give to all those who beg of you' and 'if a man steals
your cloak, give him your cloak as well'?  Yes, he talks about faith,
but he talks about deeds, too, and if deeds aren't important, why does
he spend so much time discussing them?"

